Stepping Sideways Podcast Episode 1 – Talking with Sarah Bartholomeusz.
Welcome to episode one of the new Stepping Sideways podcast.
Each episode I’ll be talking with another woman about her experiences in life, business and the workforce.
The theme of the podcast is inspired by Sheryl Sandberg’s international bestseller Lean In. I felt quite confronted when I picked it up for the first time. Women juggle so many things in the modern world and sometimes we need to take some steps sideways to allow us to lean in.
In Episode One Sarah Bartholomeusz CEO of award winning law firm You Legal joined me with her wisdom and insipration.
Please enjoy.
Sarah’s Law Firm – You Legal
Sarah’s first book – How to Avoid a Fall From Grace: Legal Lessons for Directors
Sarah’s Second Book – Kingpin: Legal Lessons from the Underworld
Sarah’s TEDx Talk – A future Possibilized
Other books we talk about:
See below for complete transcript of interview
Tatum Woodroffe:
Hello and welcome to Stepping Sideways. I’m Tatum Woodroffe, Creative Director of Hardwood Digital.
Stepping Sideways is a podcast dedicated to exploring the roles of women, both in business and the workforce. Each episode, I’ll be talking with my guest about their experiences, their trials and triumphs, and all the stories that have collected along the way.
Today, I have Sarah Bartholomeusz with me. Sarah is the Founder and CEO of the award winning law firm, You Legal, a new category [00:00:30] of corporate, commercial law firm. She has an active practise in corporate and commercial law, giving peace of mind to growing business, at all stages of their life cycle.
She has over 10 years of experience as a Lawyer, including providing complex, high level legal and corporate government support to ASX listed companies. In 2015, Sarah won the Telstra Business Women’s Award in the startup category for South Australia.
I think Sarah’s a bit of a rockstar and I’m very excited to have her [00:01:00] here with me today. Welcome Sarah.
Sarah Bartholomeusz.:
Thanks for having me.
Tatum:
Thank you. I know that you have just had your second book published. I have read your first.
I’d love, right off the bat, before we dive into some of the things about your career, to hear a little bit about why you started writing books and what that’s been like for you.
Sarah:
My first book I published a year ago, in [00:01:30] November of last year. That book took me a year to write.
The first book’s a guide book for Directors’ duties, about their duties. It’s a corporate guide book
I guess. I started writing it because I had a lot of people asking me, at that stage, what their responsibilities were as a Director if they were part of a startup, or part of a not-for-profit.
I found there wasn’t an easily accessible guide [00:02:00] that just sort of laid it out, so that’s why.
I think I started my business because I wanted to help empower people. I thought that was the easiest way to reach large numbers of people that were actually interested in compliance and governance as well.
That’s the background on the first book.
Tatum:
And the new one, Kingpin?
Sarah:
The new one, I realised that that first book, most people that read it were accountants, [00:02:30] or accountants buy it in bulk for their clients. People who already know they have risks.
I wanted to write a book about governance that appealed to everyone really.
I was on the back of a tuk-tuk in Thailand in May and thought, “People are interested in drug dealers.” I loved the Sopranos and all those shows, the movies about drug dealers. The more I looked into it, the more I realised [00:03:00] that drug dealers are some of the best risk managers around. I thought this could be a way to reach people to talk about risk and compliance in a way that everyone’s interested in.
Tatum:
I like that. The idea of taking something that is potentially complex and boring and putting it into real terms so that it’s interesting to people. I think, it’s an exciting way of framing things.
Sarah:
[00:03:30] Yeah, so that the response to Kingpin, my new book, has been phenomenal. Sales and media around it has been just beyond my wildest dreams. Very excited.
Tatum:
Very very exciting. You were on Morning TV fairly recently to promote it.
Sarah:
I was on Studio 10. Ita Buttrose [00:04:00] actually gave me a testimony, which is now on the cover of the book. She thought it was a great book, so yeah, another thing that I just could never have imagined happening.
Tatum:
That’s fantastic.
This brings me into my first question.
Imagine you’re 15 again. The reason I pick 15 is because many of us, that’s really when we start thinking about what we want to do when we grow up. We are going into your 11 and 12, and having to [00:04:30] think about subject selection and Uni and all of those fun sorts of things.
Back then, were you sort of thinking about embarking on a career in the law area? Or were you thinking of other things?
Sarah:
I wanted to be a journalist or a lawyer. How was I thinking about it? I guess, I don’t think I was thinking about too much what the day to day job entailed.
I do remember thinking that the glass ceiling wasn’t real. [00:05:00] That there wasn’t really anything to worry about, regardless of what I was going to do. Maybe that’s just my overly optimistic self.
Tatum:
That’s something that I can relate to.
Throughout your career, you’ve obviously had some shifts and changes to get to where you are now, to be running your own practise in a different format to a traditional law firm.
Can you give us a bit of a highlight reel of your career, [00:05:30] I guess from the beginning through to how you’ve gotten to where you are now?
Sarah:
Sure, I started out as a law clerk at a family law practise and realised that family law was not where I wanted to be. It was too upsetting for me. I think I was a bit too sensitive for it.
Then I started working then, in a commercial law firm. It was a small practise which had some great clients. Big corporate clients. [00:06:00] I really got a taste for that.
Then I moved to a top tier law firm in disputes from there. I really didn’t really like disputes. I was there for about four years. I found that I felt like I was always fighting with people. I think another temperament thing maybe, it just didn’t suit me.
I felt like I was fighting with the other side, which I was because it’s an adversarial setting, [00:06:30] but I felt like I was fighting with my clients because no one really wants to pay for litigation. It’s expensive. You don’t always get something out of it. It’s very uncertain.
I felt like I was fighting with the partners about how much time I was recording and very much caught in the tyranny of the time sheet. I wanted to work in a more commercial setting, and I started working, after four years at Thomsons for [00:07:00] ABB Grain, which was a public company based here in Adelaide.
Then that company was bought by a Canadian company about three years after I started working there.
I was really interested in the ASX government side, so I moved to Elders, another big corporate here in Adelaide. I worked there for three and a half years while Elders was in survival mode.
It was a very [00:07:30] stressful time to work there, but very rewarding in terms of learning. A lot of acquisitions and transactional experience that I hadn’t really had before because I was a litigator.
After selling all of the non-core assets of Elders, I realised at the sale of the largest one, as I handed a multi-million dollar check over to the company’s [00:08:00] bank that I’ve just sold my job, and that I was going to lose my job.
I was seven months pregnant at the time with my second child, and started working almost immediately for one foundation client as a consulting lawyer after I’d lost my job.
Tatum:
Wow.
Sarah:
I loved the way that that worked. I was available for them when they needed me. I wasn’t when they weren’t, which was good because I had to lie down a lot because I was pregnant. [00:08:30] It meant I took about six weeks off of maternity leave, then I could just start working again because I worked when it was convenient. I loved working that way, and I wanted to be able to give that to other lawyers and to other clients.
That was what sort of sparked the innovation that is You Legal.
Creating a flexible workplace for lawyers that isn’t based on the leverage model that traditional law firms are based on, but provides [00:09:00] them with something that’s valued by every industry all over the world, a work-life balance.
That’s the highlights.
Tatum:
That’s awesome.
Listening to that, one of the things that I find really interesting is from the outside, law is … What someone who’s not really familiar with all of the different potential elements of a law career, [00:09:30] the different things that you’ve done and you tried.
There’s certainly a lot of the things that you did towards the end of your time, or the latter part, working for Elders, that I find personally particularly interesting because their the sorts of things I wouldn’t necessarily associate with being things that a lawyer does.
All things that sound incredibly exciting and challenging.
Obviously there was that point [00:10:00] when you knew that you needed to make a big shift and I guess, it’s one of the things that many of us experience as females. Being pregnant or having children and making a career shift as a result of that. Obviously that was part of the catalyst for your big shift.
At this point, what is it now, because obviously you’ve [00:10:30] achieved amazing things in the time that you’ve been running your practise…what inspires you to keep growing and climbing now?
Sarah:
We created a vision of 1 million matters by 2020.
That keeps me going. I think just also knowing that 1 in 3 lawyers is suffering from depression, or anxiety or a high stress. [00:11:00]
Knowing that there’s a different way to do things, and wanting them to know that.
Wanting clients to know that they can have an expert lawyer at their fingertips, which they don’t always feel like when they’re dealing with a more traditional law firm, I think. That’s just a by-product of their business model.
Tatum:
Personally, that’s some of the things I really like about what you do. I find running my own business, [00:11:30] that obviously, lawyers are there to help, but the idea of engaging a lawyer sounds expensive.
I think what you’ve done has made what you do far more approachable for businesses of all types.
Sarah:
Thank you.
Tatum:
There’s, something that you said before about not really seeing there being a glass [00:12:00] ceiling. That’s something that I very much agree with.
As you know in my previous career, I was in mining industry and obviously went into that male dominated industry, but never really, personally, had really any issues with that. I was good at what I did and consequently didn’t come up against [inaudible 00:12:22] obvious barriers.
What have been your experiences of being a female in a fairly traditionally male-dominated industry?
Sarah:
[00:12:30] I think, I don’t know. Probably a little bit like you. Didn’t really particularly notice. I worked in two agricultural businesses. I do remember at one stage, someone on the phone in the field calling me “Love”, and me giving him a bit of a serve about that not being appropriate or a respectful way to refer to me. I was under a lot of pressure that day. He pressed [00:13:00] a button.
I do have a great story where I was in a meeting with an all-male board of directors.
I was sitting next to the CFO, who was a man. We were in negotiations, I was the only lawyer in the room, and the CFO turned to me and goes, “Can you get me a coffee?”
I said, “No, the coffee’s over there.” It was in the room. He was like, [00:13:30] “Oh.” I said, “While you’re up, get me a Tim Tam.”
Tatum:
What a fantastic way to deal with it. How did he react to that?
Sarah:
He brought me a Tim Tam so that was good.
Tatum:
It’s an interesting thing, that’s for sure. The characters that you come up against.
Sarah:
Yes.
Tatum:
Yeah. I think, often times it can be perception as much as reality. [00:14:00] There are just some people that are difficult to work with, regardless of gender.
Sarah:
That’s true. With that guy, I did have a good rapport, so if it was the MD who had said that, I probably would have just got up and got the coffee.
Tatum:
Within your career, and perhaps the things that you’ve done recently, has there been a time where you’ve looked back at your achievements and just gone, “Oh my goodness. Wow.”, [00:14:30] and it’s just taken your breath away?
Sarah:
In May this year, I did a TEDx talk. At the time I just sort of did it.
This last week I was asked to deliver it again, so I had to re-listen to it to remind myself of what I said. I cried listening to it because it was such an amazing achievement that at the time, I did not appreciate [00:15:00] at all.
What I talked about still makes me emotional. One of the things I talked about in it is the eradication of malaria.
Tatum:
Yes.
Sarah:
The numbers of people that were dying from it 15 years ago versus now, I find that so moving that it’s being eradicated and each year, less and less people are affected by it.
[00:15:30] That’s probably the most recent example I can think of.
Tatum:
I have watched your TEDx talk, and it did make me teary. I have definitely used the word “possibilizing” in my vocabulary since.
Sarah:
Very happy to hear that.
Tatum:
I think it’s a wonderful word and it certainly sums up what you were talking about and I guess, what is possible is an excellent [00:16:00] word.
Sarah:
Yes. Be it made up.
Tatum:
A good one.
What is a piece of information or some advice that you would give to people who are starting out, I guess, where you were about 3 years ago?
Not necessarily something that you’d do differently, but just a general piece of advice to people starting [00:16:30] out on a new journey.
Sarah:
I think that self doubt is something that can sabotage people a lot. I think just back yourself, is my go-to piece of advice for people.
Tatum:
Yeah, yeah. I like that. Self doubt it’s a bit of a dream killer I think, sometimes.
Sarah:
Yeah. It can cripple people, which is a real shame. Certainly doesn’t help them possiblize things.
Tatum:
No, very true. Very true.
Have you read Lean In? What are your [00:17:00] thoughts about the book?
Sarah:
I bought about 45 copies of that book for people.
Tatum:
Have you?
Sarah:
Yes. I got so much out of it. I read it in between having my first baby and my second baby, so still in my corporate world then.
I found it so helpful in negotiating my return to work. I highly recommend that book as well.
Tatum:
Excellent. Excellent. As I said, I was kind of terrified when I picked [00:17:30] it up for the first time and had to put it back down. I’ve never been confronted about [inaudible 00:17:35] book before, ever.
Sarah:
Wow.
Tatum:
Yes. I felt after making some changes, I picked it up again and I felt far more comfortable with what was in it.
Sarah:
Interesting.
Tatum:
Yeah. I’m not one to generally feel quite so terrified at the ideas of that. I’m generally quite comfortable with big ideas and [00:18:00] big goals, but I think it must have just been at a time when I was a little bit vulnerable when I’d read it for the first time.
I can imagine that it would impact other women in that way.
I think that what Sheryl Sandberg’s done is pretty phenomenal.
Sarah:
She is a very inspiring woman.
Tatum:
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate you taking the time out to [00:18:30] chat to me. I’m just going to ask you five quick questions before we go.
First of all, this is an important question.
Are you an Iphone girl or Android?
Sarah:
I’m an Iphone person.
Tatum:
We are Android people here at Hardwood Digital because, you know, we play with all things technical. Can you tell me your most highly recommended book?
Sarah:
At the moment, I’m reading Big Magic by Elizabeth [00:19:00] Gilbert.
It’s about living a creative life. I read it before I released my first book. I feel like it’s about living beyond fear.
That’s really important if you’re somebody who … I think as an entrepreneur, you are living a creative life. There’s a lot of fear. That’s been really helpful for me.
Tatum:
Yes. It’s a beautiful book. I gave it to all of my children’s teachers as their Christmas [00:19:30] gift last year.
Sarah:
That’s a lovely idea.
Tatum:
Yes. Even the Male teacher got a copy of the pink book.
Sarah:
Good.
Tatum:
I thanked them all for sharing their magic with the children.
Sarah:
Beautiful.
Tatum:
Your most useful productivity tip or tool?
Sarah:
Every day at the start of the day, I write down every hour in the day and what I’m going to do with it.
Tatum:
Yes, excellent.
Sarah:
Yeah. When people ask me how I do everything that I do, that’s the answer. I compartmentalise [00:20:00] things and I don’t waste time.
Tatum:
I think that’s a great way to approach things. The best advice you’ve ever been given?
Sarah:
I think we talked about that, back yourself.
Tatum:
How do you celebrate your career wins?
Sarah:
I always set my goals with rewards attached to them. Those rewards could be as simple as a night out for dinner with my husband, or as giant as a family holiday to New Zealand.
Tatum:
Brilliant. I’m so glad [00:20:30] that you celebrate because it’s such an important thing. I think if we don’t stop and celebrate even the smallest of wins, we can get a little bit snowed under at times.
Sarah:
Interestingly enough, this week, I’ve had advice from my husband that I also need to reward myself by doing things like having hard conversations, so that I don’t look at hard conversations as something that are negative, but something that have a reward attached to them, so that I’d look forward [00:21:00] to them instead of putting them off for, in some cases, years.
Tatum:
I think that’s an excellent piece of advice. I think I might have to take that one on board myself. Thank you so much for your time today.
Sarah:
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.
Tatum:
Thank you so much for joining Sarah and I today. I’ll be back again soon with my next guest. Make sure you subscribe so that you’ll never miss an episode.
